Answering some questions

I've received this email a couple of weeks ago, and since the questions here seems to be a recurring theme in the emails I've been getting recently, I've decided to publicly answer this one. The author of this email was kind enough to let me publish it here. I also like the kind remarks, and I guess one of the reasons I decided to publish this email was to show off. :)

I should also say that I am not in the best position to answer these questions, since I have not even started the program yet. I reserve the right to change my opinions through the course of next year, so please take these answers with a grain of salt.


[...]I wish to inform you that I am already a business management graduate and a chartered secretary specialising in corporate and economic laws. I was contemplating a number of options for pursuing an advanced program in finance. One option is a second MBA from one of the premier institutes in the US or UK and another option is the Masters in Finance program at LBS. I have close to 4 years of experience in the financial services industry.

As I was just reading up some material on the MiF course offered by LBS, I came across your blog and found it extremely useful. You have given a wealth of information. What I liked the most about your blog was the way in which you have shared your experiences / feelings / opinions. However, I need some additional details which I believe will help me take an informed decision:-

a. How good is MiF, LBS? I mean without an opportunity to intern with an iBank / hedge fund what are your chances of getting into a bulge bracket ibank?

I think doing an internship increases your chances of getting into a bulge bracket i-bank or a hedge fund considerably. This is specially the case if you do not have any work experience in the type of firm you want to work at. LBS MiF program has a requirement that you have at least 2 years of finance experience, but they are pretty vague about that requirement. You could have been working for the IT group in a commercial bank for 2 years and still be admitted to MiF. Operative term being "could have been" since LBS admissions solely makes the decision.

If you think you do not have the right amount of experience, or if you want to make a significant career move, I urge you to consider the MBA program instead. It's a 2 year program, and you have great chance to do an internship between years 1 and 2.

When I go to London, I will root for LBS to support pre-MiF internships since I've gone through a lot of trouble securing this internship, and also getting the administrative stuff done (such as visas). Oxford MFE program on the other hand, provides help for their students to get an internship before the program starts without even asking for it.



b. In your blog you had mentioned that only 30% - 40% of the MiF students get placed through the milk rounds. The rest have to find jobs on their own. This does make me feel extremely insecure. Does this mean that the school does not support the students in anyway?

That's the number I've got from a current MiF student. I think it's more empirical than a rock solid number. But yes, since the timing of milk rounds is a little awkward, not many MiF students get a job offer. Reminder, the first milk round is mainly for full time job offers and takes place sometime around November. Second milk round is around April/May and is mainly for internship opportunities. If you are an MBA student that calendar makes a lot of sense. You do the May milk round for an internship during your first year, and the Nov milk round for a full time job just when you start the second year.

I don't know how much support you get from the school. The people (MiF staff, alumni and current students) I've talked to sounded pretty calm about the whole process, since everyone gets placed one way or the other. Career services is pretty good and they start working with you even before you get a foot in London. They publish resume books, and try very hard to get you placed. But at the end of the day it's up to you to network your way into a decent job, or to present yourself to the prospective employers.


c. You had recommended that it is always better to do an intern before joining MiF. How long should the internship be? How to go about getting an internship with an iBank? I am currently staying in India. What are the chances for me to get an internship with bulge bracker bank in one of the leading financial centres? ( In my knowledge, it is quite limited... :) Do give your views on this.

i-bank internships are hard to get. Here's why. Their internship applications close sometime in mid to late december. Even if you apply in Round 1 to LBS, you may not get a decision by then. And let me tell you that telling people you have an admission offer from LBS places some weight on your application. So do your best, apply as early as you can, even before the R1 deadline. That way you may apply to i-bank internships before they close.

How long? - I don't know. 2 months should be the bare minimum I think. It depends on the organization you are interning with, and they tend to determine the duration most of the time.


d. I have also read that networking is one of key aspects for getting a job in an ibank. With a 1 year program, and placements starting within the first few months of joining LBS ( MiF), how can one possibly network and get a job?

I am definitely not the right person to answer this question right now, but maybe within a year I'll have some first hand experience to share with you.

Here are what I know so far. There are school trips to NY, Hong Kong etc. I think it's important to attend those, since every time an employer shows up at the school people would be circling him like a flock of ants. I don't think that's the right way of networking your way into a job.

LBS has a ton of clubs for different interests, you can see the complete list here. You should use these as tools to meet people in the industry that you normally would not be able to.


e. I firmly believe that the courses that LBS offers is great. But will the coaching for the first few months at LBS MiF suffice to crack the technical ibanking interviews?


We'll see. But the assumption is you already come from a finance background anyways.


I understand that LBS has a terrific brand name. But somehow the finer details of the MiF course make me feel a bit sceptical.

As I had mentioned, your blog was indeed awesome. (perhaps you should be charging people for this... :) more informative that any other site that I have been visiting in the recent past. This prompted me to shoot off this mail to you.

Charging?? Hmm. Good idea, but I don't know how much of my hefty tuition bill I can recoup from this site. Although clicking on the advertisements on this site would help for a starter. (or buy yourself a kindle!)

Would greatly appreciate your views on the aforementioned points.

Keep well....

Kind rgds.


No problem at all! Hope this was helpful.
Keep reading!

LBS MIF Admits so far

There are 78 people that has been admitted so far. From what I see, most people have careers in finance, although not at very high-profile institutions such as I-banking or hedge funds. Working at a government organization (central bank or so) also seems like a popular trend.

One of my readers emailed me today saying he's got in. I hope more of the readers of this blog will get in to the program and we'll meet in London. I'm pretty excited about going there, especially since we've pretty much decided that my wife will join me in London as well.

My first ding - Princeton

Princeton dinged me. I should honestly say that Princeton was the school that I least paid attention to during applications, although I thought my essays were pretty good. I've sent the application fee pretty late, and did not bother to send any transcripts since they did not ask for it in the initial application.

In any event, I think getting 2 acceptances out of 3 schools is still pretty good. An acceptance from Princeton would not have changed my decision, so I'm glad someone else got an acceptance from Princeton instead of me.

In the coming days I'll write more about the LBS financing the studies, curriculum, career paths and scholarships. There is a very vibrant discussion going on at the LBS portal among the new admits. I am not allowed to copy & paste any information directly from LBS portal to here, but I will definitely write my impressions.

The natural selection

It's nice to know that people are following this blog. I hope it hasn't been too long, but there has been quite a few things going on in my life lately and I haven't been able to write much. Also, I did not know which offer I was going to accept.

On one hand, there was Oxford, a name that everybody appreciate with an opportunity to get a decent internship over the summer. The other option was LBS, the heavy-weight champion of all Finance programs around.

It was a tough decision, but I have decided to accept LBS' offer. And here's the reason for the title: I just waited until Oxford's offer expires, so now I only have one offer that I can not afford rejecting. Isn't that wonderful?

To top it off, here's the 2007 Global MBA rankings from Financial Times:
http://rankings.ft.com/global-mba-rankings

LBS jumped from #5 to #2 spot globally, and it's also the #1 business school in Europe.
http://media.ft.com/cms/1a8b39e4-c804-11dc-94a6-0000779fd2ac.pdf

So now that the decision phase is over, I can concentrate on making arrangements for moving to London.! And that would mean letting my lovely car go :(

Here's a little goodie about LBS. It's kinda cheesy but I like it.

And Oxford says yes!!!

I will not have a whole lot of time to post until the end of January, but I've got great news today. Oxford accepted me, which brings me to my Oxford vs. LBS dilemma. I've also started looking at financing my studies. Oxford is considerably cheaper than LBS, which may also make a difference in my decision.

I also have not have time to respond to the comments my readers left so far, but this will get done today as well.

I'll keep posting..

Never underestimate Oxford!

I've received an email from my cousin today, congratulating me on LBS admission. He was asking what my plans are if Oxford would offer me a place as well. From the tone of his email, I could tell he was a bit surprised that I am thinking about turning down Oxford to go to LBS. A couple of days ago, a similar topic came up when talking to my parents. How come I would not want to go to Oxford?

I guess I have been underestimating the power Oxford label has, after centuries of educating world's most successful people. Even though the Said Business School is relatively new, people I've talked to regard the program as one of the most successful programs that provide a good mix of Finance and Economics. This is one distinguishing factor, as the degree LBS provides is purely a Finance degree.

Here's another data point. An Oxford MBA (not MFE) blogger has posted a somewhat comparison between LBS and Oxford programs. http://richardconnmba.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-lbs-questions.html

Rankings are telling a different story though. When you look at the MBA rankings (unfortunately I do not have access to Finance ratings from any other source), LBS ranks much higher than Oxford. Take a look at FT rankings for example.

FT.com / Business Education / European Business school rankings
FT.com / Business Education / Global MBA rankings

LBS ranks 2nd in Europe, and 5th globally, whereas Oxford ranks 21st in EU and 19th globally.

For now, I will keep betting that LBS name will get bigger and better known outside the UK within 10 years or so. I am also betting that it is already a big name within PE/IB circles, which is what I care for.

Comments, anyone?

LBS MiF Interview Experience

I'd better write about my LBS interview before I forget about it. Hey, is there a better day to write about it night before your wedding reception anyways? JK

Here's my LBS application timeline:
- Nov 5, 2007: Emailled MiF admissions about eligibility (basically sent my resume)
- Nov 16, 2007: Submitted my application just in time for the Round 1 application deadline. (Actually it was 5 hours past the deadline. Don't try this at home!)
- Dec 6 2007: Received confirmation from LBS that I was shortlisted for an interview
- Dec 15, 2007: Interviewed with an alumnus

Prep work:
I did two things. First, I read about the finance industry. This is not something you can do overnight. Prepare yourself by reading Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, Economist. Read the industry guides from Vault. Also read some of the books I've listed on this blog. They give you a great insight about the industry. Secondly, I had been reading forums and blogs about others' interview experiences. I'd especially recommend Business Week's forums, accepted.com, admissions411.com etc.

Attire:
I had no idea what to wear, since the interview was with a 2007 graduate, on a weekend, and near his home. So I asked him. He said he didn't care what I'd wear, but he said if I'd feel better by wearing formal he'd be fine. We agreed on business casual. I went to the interview with dress pants, button down shirt, and a jacket. Not a suit, and no tie. I think it worked well.


Questions:
Both technical and behavioral questions. Mainly, we went through my resume. The toughest question was why I was interested in Finance. (My background is high-tech) You need to explain where your interest in finance stems from. It needs to be genuine and real. You need to have a story to tell.

Another important question was what I wanted to do after I graduated. Again, need a good story to tell. "I want to work in Finance industry" is not good. "Investment banking" is better, but not specific enough. Research the departments within the type of company you want to work for, and have a couple of words to say about the position you want to take. I also explained him my plan about job search, which would begin even before the program would start. I'm planning to get a summer internship, and get CFA qualification.

What about my long term plans? I already had an answer in my essay, but I had to defend my position. Your interviewer may try to convince you that you had a boilerplate answer, and the worst thing you can do is accept to that.

Some technical questions about finance. What are derivatives, options, value at risk, proprietary trading. Don't make things up. If you don't know the answer to a question just admit it, and say you are eager to learn what the answer is. Although you're not expected to already know everything that would be thought during the program, you need to have some knowledge.

How can I use my current background in my future career in finance? I said I can use my strategy and sales experience if I were to work for a trading grouo in an I-bank. He said I-Bank trade desks do not do much sales. I told him that as I get higher in the group I believe I would have more sales responsibility to mutual funds etc. He bought into that.

Being in the US, why am I applying to LBS? Did I think about the finance programs in the US? Now be careful. This is a trick question. Here's why. The finance programs in the US (not talking about finance oriented MBA programs here) are geared towards churning out quants. For example Berkeley's Haas is a great program, but it's financial engineering. He was basically trying to gauge whether I knew what I wanted. So I gave him the answer he wanted. (I think). I said I was interested in a leadership role in a finance organization, not being a number jock. (Nothing wrong with being a number jock, I just don't want it). The only program similar to what I wanted was Princeton in the US, but I'd prefer LBS over Princeton due to many reasons.

What would I bring to the student body and the program? Need some creativity here. I think these boring questions are designed to see your out of the box thinking. They want to see sparks in your eyes when telling a story. Some originality needed here. Not sure if I was successful, but I said being a manager in a public company, I know what the shareholder expectations are, and I know how these requirements translate into daily work load. I also bring significant international experience (I live in the US, but I'm not American), and I've had this kind of experience already once. Finally, I'm technically savvy and can help people. He said these were all great reasons, but don't try to over emphasize technical background much. MiF is more technical than MBA, but you're not going there to be a quant. So don't brag about your technical qualifications much.

The interview took about 1 hour and 15 minutes. The original allotted time was 45 minutes, so we went over a little. He answered a lot of my questions. I realized most of my questions had one "official" and one "off-the record" answer. Off the record answer was universally more useful.

Something negative happened during the interview as well. My cell phone started going off in the middle of the interview. It was on vibrate, but after a couple calls, I started getting annoyed. So I excused myself and pulled out my cell phone and turned it off. Later when I was walking out, I was able to take a peek at his notes. One of the notes he jotted down was "cell phone". You can imagine what I thought. "What a douche bag am I? I just got myself dinged!"

Well, luckily that wasn't the case, and I got the admission a couple of days ago. Phew!!

PS: Don't forget to send a thank-you letter after the interview.

ADMITTED TO LBS!

I've just got an email from LBS MiF admissions committee. I've got admitted to the program!

I'm long way from home, in a snowy place with my in-laws to celebrate Christmas. This has been a wonderful Christmas present.

There's a lot to say, and I am hoping to post details about my application strategy including the interview in the coming days. Make sure you subscribe to my RSS feed, and you'll get the updates.

Happy holidays everyone.

Finance schools and programs to apply

Here's what my initial list looked like:

- Oxford University - Said Business School, Masters in Financial Economics
- Cambridge University - Judge Business School, M.Sc. Finance (aka MFin)
- Manchester Business School, M.Sc. Finance and Economics
- Imperial College (Tanaka), M.Sc. Finance
- Princeton University, M.Sc. Finance
- London School of Economics, M.Sc. Finance and Economics
- London Business School, Master in Finance

The list actually goes on and on.. It took me quite a while to compile this list, looking at it from every possible angle. App deadlines, tuition, living expenses in each city, application requirements etc.

I had decided to apply to Princeton, Oxford and Cambridge initially, however I had to put off Cambridge, since they are supposedly coming up with a new program which they encourage people with background like mine to apply. The program still hasn't been announced.

One of my professors from the MBA encouraged me to apply to the LBS, and even though I felt that my background in Finance is not very strong, I decided to give it a shot. (LBS requires that you have a background in finance). I have some background related to the finance industry from my day to day work experience and b-school, but I'd say that is peripheral.

Eventually I've applied to the following schools:
- LBS
- Oxford
- Princeton

LBS and Oxford offered me an interview, which I'll write about later. (Both of these interviews have already occured). I have been putting off sending the application payment to Princeton, which I should do pretty soon.

You may wonder why I did not consider any other schools in the U.S besides Princeton. There are very good schools in the U.S. that send a considerable portion of their yearly graduates to IBs annually. However, those (NYU, Harvard, Wharton) are all MBA schools, without any dedicated program in Finance. There are also some pretty good Financial Engineering programs such as Haas School of Business in Berkeley, but this is really targeted towards quantitative finance, i.e., you need to become a math jock and your life revolves around formulas. This might be a good thing for some people, but I am looking for a leadership position in the finance industry, not a technical position.

MBA vs. Masters in Finance

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have an MBA degree from a non-top tier US business school. After realizing how important the school label is for getting hired into a top investment bank or a consulting firm, I had to make a choice. Which B-school do I apply to? Should I apply to another MBA program, or a M.Sc. program that specializes in Finance?

First, if you have an MBA degree from a US Business school, you typically cannot apply for another MBA program within the US. That's pretty intuitive. I was told that U.K. business schools actually do not care if you have a previous MBA degree, but I decided against applying to any MBA program at all, for the following reasons (in no particular order):

1) I don't think I value the MBA education from a top school after my current MBA degree. the curriculum is the same among MBA schools, and the only difference is the quality of faculty and student body.

2) Getting a second MBA is a very loser thing to do.

3) Full time Finance programs are typically one year long, whereas MBA programs are 2 years long. There's a big financial difference.

So ended up applying to Finance programs only...